Episode 33: Beyond the Bet: Marlene Warner on Problem Gambling, Public Health, and Michigan’s Path Forward

In this episode of Double Down Michigan, we’re joined by Marlene Warner, a nationally recognized leader in gambling harm reduction and CEO of The Massachusetts Council on Gaming and Health, along with guest host Jasmine Tompkins, Director of External Affairs at the MGCB. Marlene also serves as the executive director of the Michigan Association on Problem Gambling (MAPG), where she’s helping shape the organization’s strategic direction and deepen its impact statewide.

With September recognized as Responsible Gaming Education Month, it’s the perfect time to spotlight efforts like MAPG’s—focusing on education, prevention, treatment, and policy to promote safer play. Marlene shares her vision for a more informed and proactive approach to responsible gambling in Michigan. Tune in as we explore how MAPG is working to reach underserved communities, strengthen partnerships, and advocate for policies that prioritize public health and equity, plus how you can get involved in the movement for safer play.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:01

Honey, did you pay the rent this stuff? Because I just received a late notice. Uh, sorry, what what's that? Wait, are you gambling online again? Me? No. Not at all. If managing the bills and your betting has become a challenge, self-excluding from online gambling or sports betting might be for you. Learn more at don't regretthebet.org, a message from the Michigan Gaming Control Board. Have a gambling problem? Call the National Problem Gambling Helpline at 1-800GAMBLERS.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

On the Double Down Michigan podcast, we explore topics related to the gaming industry in Michigan. Host Henry Williams, Michigan Gaming Control Board Executive Director, discusses responsible gaming, gaming legislation in our state, current trends, and more. We feature special guests from the gaming industry so you can get the inside scoop. Be sure to subscribe to Double Down Michigan, a podcast by the Michigan Gaming Control Board to stay up to date on the latest in gaming. Thank you for listening.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

Guest Post Alert. Hey everybody, it's Jasmine again, taking over for Executive Director Henry Williams on today's Double Dow Michigan podcast. With September recognized as Responsible Gaming Education Month, there's no better time to shine a light on people and programs working to promote safer play. Today's guest is someone whose leadership and passion has shaped the national conversation on gambling harm reduction. We're thrilled to welcome my good friend Marlene Warner, who joins us to talk about her executive director role with the Michigan Association on Problem Gambling and her broader work in the field. As CEO of the Massachusetts Council on Gaming and Health, Marlene is at the helm of an organization with a truly global impact. She champions a people-first, data-driven approach to prevention, education, treatment, and advocacy while keeping public health and equity at the heart of it all. Outside of her professional work, she calls Salem, Massachusetts home, yes, the Halloween capital of the world, where she enjoys life with her husband, three kids, their dog, and two cats. Marlene, thank you for joining me today. We're honored to have you here on the show. Jasmine, I am so excited to be here with you today. Marlene, to start us off, can you share how you first got connected with the Michigan Association on Problem Gambling and what drew you to your role with the organization?

SPEAKER_01 2:42

Yeah, sure. So I had known Michael Burke for a really long time, and Michael was deciding to step down as executive director of MAPG, which we call the Michigan Association Problem Gambling MAPG. And um so I started talking to Michael and to the board members about how they have so many opportunities to kind of unify Michigan because you have so many forms of like you have all the legal forms of gambling in Michigan. And Michael had done such nice work raising awareness with his own story in his book. But I thought there was a lot more opportunity for advocacy. And so we talked a little bit about that. He was very reluctant to step down because he didn't know what was going to happen in MapG. So he was very excited about me coming in and helping. And so we set up this uh arrangement with the board of directors for three years to really work in Michigan and be as useful as possible, taking some of the lessons learned in Massachusetts, but also elsewhere, but also putting a real Michigan spin on it. So that's how how I'm here today. Why I have come to love Michigan and I've been driving around, as you know, and uh I've become a really big fan of this state.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

Yeah, hopefully a Spartan. Um now I know this, but our listeners don't know this. This is not your first time doing uh like a pilot at a state. So can you tell us a little bit about some of the other places you get?

SPEAKER_01 4:05

You know, listen, I've been I'm old, so I've been around for a while, and I have um I was asked to come in by the board of directors at the Connecticut Council on Problem Gambling. Uh they had gone through a couple of EDs and wanted to make sure that it was on solid footing. So the board had asked me to come down as part of the Massachusetts Council, do that. We did that for three years, and and now it's stronger than ever because of the the leadership of one of the people I hired was the executive director who's there now. Um, and we are currently running all the services in in Vermont, at the state of Vermont. So um, yeah, every state's a little different, and you know, and I think what's great is that at the heart of it is we really want to focus on player health and have that full spectrum represented regardless of where we go. So yeah, it's been exciting and fun.

SPEAKER_02 4:55

Yeah, okay, thinking about the differences. What unique opportunities or challenges do you see here for us in Michigan?

SPEAKER_01 5:02

So in Michigan, I think one of the first things I realized was that there's so many well-intended people working their various silos, and lots of um uh the legislature was really creative and thoughtful in m putting together pots of money. So it's not that there was no funding, it's that it's it's just very disparate in terms of how it's um being allocated. So I guess that's one thing is like how do we build a strong safety net for Michiganders that is um unifies these entities? Because of course, people who make the choice to gamble don't see the different entities, right? They play the lottery in the morning, they may stop by a casino in the afternoon, and they may go on and uh place a sports bet in the evening. So we need to, as a state statewide agency, really think about how do we build that safety. Now, that was the first thing. And I guess the second thing, kind of related, is that the way to exclude yourself from a gambling product is also very separated. And so um that's one of the big pushes I've been um talking to people about, whether it's the 12 tribal uh sovereign nations and their 26 properties, whether it's the gaming control board or the lottery, the DHHS, um really thinking about how do we um unify those self-exclusion programs. And in Michigan, they're called different things, right? The responsible gambling database or the disassociated persons list, but how do we unify them in some way that really gives people options so that if they're suffering, they can make a quick end to the access to those products.

SPEAKER_02 6:33

Yeah, nice. Make a well-rounded decision instead of the one-offs. Exactly. Okay. Uh, as the executive director of MAPG, what are some of your key priorities for the organization over the next year?

SPEAKER_01 6:46

Yeah, well, one is to to work on those two things. I mean, I think one of the things that is different for me to come to Michigan from Massachusetts is we don't have any recent data on what specifically is happening in Michigan. So I'd love to see a research study uh done that's statewide that looks at the impact of gaming in Massachusetts in Michigan. Sorry, I do that often to M states in Michigan, and think about not just the impact on state coffers, which I know is something that can probably be pretty easily accessed, but also what are some of the impacts of the money being set aside? How is it being utilized? Um, what services have been set up and what is the uh effect the efficacy of those? And then just in general, what's the prevalence of gambling problems in Michigan? I really don't know. We've been using uh national data, but Michigan has a lot of gambling, and it's a pretty diverse and and large state, so it would be helpful to get some very specific um information about that. So I'd say research first, self-exclusion probably second, and then thinking about again, does Michigan have, once we get that information, does Michigan have all the resources we would want to call it a robust player health system for the state of Michigan? I think that's another initiative we're working on, as well as really simple things, right? Like government relations, just getting people to know MAPC and then organizational development, building up our board of directors and uh making sure we're strong as an organization.

SPEAKER_02 8:20

Okay. I feel like your first uh the research might we may grant your Christmas list wish.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

Jasmine, I like that you're my fairy, you're my fairy godmother. I like that. Let's keep that going.

SPEAKER_02 8:32

Yeah, I hope so. I think it's really important. Like you said, we haven't done research in the state in a long time, but I think we're all on the same boat. So I'm excited about that. Good. Uh all right, so Map G has a wide mission from education to treatment to advocacy. Yes. So I'm supposed to ask you which are you more focused on supporting right now? But I feel like you've answered that. So I guess my question really is like, how are you going to balance all of those in your time here?

SPEAKER_01 8:58

Yeah, I think so. One of the things that we need to do too is fundraise. We we're not an agency that currently has any state contracts. We don't have a um membership organization kind of platform. So I think one of the things we're trying to do is build up this um what I've called the MP3, the Michigan Player Protection Program, and that is really bringing in sponsors from all the all the entities we've talked about, right? This the state entities, the commercial entities, and the tribal entities, and um see if we can build in some um funds so that we then can hire Michigan-based staff. The goal is that in three years you all don't hear from me anymore, and you really have Michigan-based people who understand their purpose and focus. So, again, a little bit to the organizational development piece, but simultaneously utilizing some of the resources we already have to have a government relations firm helping us talk to the legislature, talk to regulators. So, um, yeah, uh a little bit of all things, but I think that the foundation needs to be set for the organization.

SPEAKER_02 9:59

Okay, noted. In three years, Marlene plans to leave me with other people.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

You can come visit. You can still visit. I'm still gonna visit here.

SPEAKER_02 10:07

Okay, so I feel like we got a good picture of what success looks like to you for three years, but what about for five years for MAPG? So two years you'd be gone after that three years, and you ideally want them to be doing what?

SPEAKER_01 10:18

You know what would be that's a great question. And I think what would be really helpful is to be able to point across a pull a full player health continuum saying, here are the resources that we have from primary prevention, that there's a youth curriculum that is being either mandated or at least um integrated into mandates and health classes and things like that, and that it's evidence-based, um, making sure that uh parents are aware of the harms of um giving access to their children uh to you know uh online gambling sports sites, things like that, um, all the way through long-term recovery. You know, I think one of the things that we don't do enough of is look at the at the connection between gambling and other mental health disorders, other addiction uh uh issues. So making sure that we are thinking about secondary and tertiary prevention with people who have some of these other disorders and keeping them away from gambling or keeping them healthy around gambling. And then certainly all of the harm minimization that can be happening across all the gambling products here. So, what would be nice is to have those kind of like I'm envisioning a map of kids all the way through these folks in long-term recovery, and what are all the ways MapG can either be influencing and um educating or offering direct services? Uh, I think that you also have such a large state that there's a lot of opportunities to do things that are, you know, it's not one size fits all for everyone. So thinking about a model that then gets very specific around culture or gets specific around regions, so doing something that's very specific to um working with tribal health or you know, getting very specific about folks that live in very rural areas and maybe accessing gambling online and also need to access treatment online. How are we giving them the right resources? Um, and then above all, making sure they're human beings, because tech is great, but human beings really need to be at the heart of all this. So making sure people are well trained in all the areas with all the key partners and so that they can talk to players at any point, and or outside agencies are well versed in gambling, can talk to people who are struggling with gambling um at any point in their journey. But it's a big undertaking to be able to make sure that that network is happening. Yeah, that sounds like a lot for three to five years.

SPEAKER_02 12:39

I believe in you. We can do it, Jasmine. Together we can do it. No, I know we can. You got a good network. We just gotta make us all talk. That's right.

unknown 12:48

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 12:49

Um, all right, so I'm going to go over to education now. Good. Are there any specific educational tools or campaigns that you're helping MAPG develop to build awareness around safer gambling?

SPEAKER_01 13:02

So I think one of the most important things is people need to understand what they they need to understand the games, the odds, and they need to understand that it's meant to be fun. So if you understand how House Edge is developed, and you understand that this needs to be a portion of your budget and shouldn't be more than 1% of your monthly budget that's off of the low-risk gambling guidelines, and you understand the ridiculous odds that are against you, and you still want to play it, awesome. Like then you've made an educated choice. But one of the things we know from the concept of positive play that comes out of a model out of Canada is that by far, and it doesn't matter if we're talking about the US or Canada or Australia, always the bottom rung of every um jurisdiction that has been analyzed with positive play study is gambling literacy. Most people don't know what they're doing, and some people like to suspend reality, and they're that's a portion of gambling, but they really need to understand that if we're gonna play a game, if they're willing to just throw their money away and they don't think they're gonna win and they don't care, that's one thing, but that's not how most people go into it. Most people want to have fun while making money, and the anticipation of making more money is what keeps them engaged, that needs to be um tempered with real education. I'd say that is the number one biggest thing we can do. So those campaigns that go out, like it's great to say, you know, like most people in the US will say, like, set a limit, set a budget. And that's a very vanilla approach to it. It's not wrong, but getting much more specific about how the games work, um, when there's a big lottery um, you know, jackpot, why your your chances aren't any better or worse playing it than as you know, three weeks later after jackpot's been hit and you still go play, your your odds are exactly the same. So just having those kind of conversations with people so that they better understand it. And then I said I'd say the other thing is I talked about setting a budget or setting a time limit. Um, pre-commitment is a an important piece, but you gotta hold people to it and give them a way to feel accountable. So whether that's giving them statements of their own play, people also like to know that they are how their behavior um connects to normative behavior. So getting that kind of data and data is a whole nother piece. I don't know if that'll happen in the next three to five years, but data from all the licensees and all the operators in in Michigan would be essential to get a lot of these things done. But looking at anonymized um player data and comparing someone being able to compare their play against it is very helpful. So those kind of campaigns that would be statewide would say, regardless of what you choose to play, how you choose to play, are you playing more than you should? And how would you know that? And what is the norm, you know, for a Michigander? That kind of data is very helpful for folks.

SPEAKER_02 16:08

Yeah, okay, they like that. How can MapG play a stronger role in shaping conversations around responsible gaming regulation, especially with new gaming platforms on the rise? For instance, in Michigan, we went from having our three commercials and a couple tribal casinos to now all 12 of our tribal operators and our three commercial operators have an online operator, and now we have online horse bedding. So, how can we um play a stronger role in helping responsible gaming regulation for us?

SPEAKER_01 16:40

So I think that I just started to touch on this. I think data is paramount in these situations, and I understand that licensees often don't want to share it because it's very proprietary. However, it's so essential to helping people and understanding, you know, people have been talking for the last I'd say two years about AI and how AI can really be trained to help earlier on with intervening with in in terms of players heading down the wrong path. But we have to train the AI. And so, in order to train it, we need to be able to use data that's beyond just one company's data and and pull multiple pieces or multiple companies' worth of data in. It also would be is my dream if we could do it live versus after the fact. So we know places like New Jersey, uh, they have a project with Rutgers University with Dr. Leah Nauer and they send anonymized data over and she's analyzing and coming back with trends, but it's happening two to three years later. Uh, and that's helpful. I mean, it has been incredibly helpful, but I think um having an arrangement between an operator and a regulator where they're not having to share the data with anyone but the regulator, but being able to identify the the right paths and um places and ways to intervene when a player's starting to head down the wrong in the wrong direction and who intervenes and how that happens. I think there are a lot of decisions to be made, but the data is essential. Um long gone are the days when you know people used to say to me, like, oh, I know everybody at the track, and so if they're having a bad day, I'll know and I can intervene. That just can't happen on the online platforms. We need other ways to make that happen. And I really think to be fully specific and helpful, it needs to be someone other than the operator intervening. So bringing those third parties like like a MAPG or a treatment center or somebody else in to have those conversations when it feels like someone's waffling or heading down a wrong path.

SPEAKER_02 18:43

Whose buy-in do you need first to make a responsible gaming programming change? Do you think it's regulator, provider, legislative?

SPEAKER_01 18:52

Yeah, I think the I mean it's a great question in the sense that, you know, I can't speak on MGCB's behalf, but I'd I'd say you're a pretty strong regulator, a very strong regulator, and and some regulators are worried about upsetting the operator. Like, you know, you have to find this balance of maximizing profits to the state while minimizing harms to the citizens. Um and you are also having to walk the delicate line of keeping your licensees happy enough to keep generating funds here while also holding them accountable to what your regulations are, and you you have to walk the line of keeping the legislature happy. So I think it's a little bit of a combination of everything. I think the legislature should, if they don't already, get regular reports and be asking the right questions. And then the regulator needs to be having the conversations with the licensees, but also looking at some of the research and the data and the outside advocacy to say, like, oh, we could probably push a little harder in this area. But it's I do think most of it falls to the regulator. I think it's a it is a delicate balance.

SPEAKER_02 19:56

Thinking about uh collaboration and impact, in your view, what makes MagG's approach distinct and how are you helping them build partnerships with other community and professional groups?

SPEAKER_01 20:09

This is an ongoing piece that I think we're still trying to figure out because we don't live in Michigan. Um, you know, where can we be most helpful? I mean, one of the things, again, back to the data is it that will come out of a research study is who's the most impacted group. You know, in Massachusetts, we know that um African American men are the most impacted by gambling problems. But interestingly enough, they're not the largest group of gamblers in casinos or on sports wagering sites. So that means their um impacts are larger and they may be gambling in other ways. So what do we do with that information? Now we have to really think about not just going where players are, because we can go to legal places, but we don't know where illegal gambling is happening. It could be happening in other places. But also going to places where culture and community connect and and asking those folks that are community gatekeepers how we can help build their capacity to work on this issue. So we have a good example of working with uh within Chinatown and and Boston and uh Quincy and a little bit in the Lowell and Lawrence areas, and mostly with Chinese, some Vietnamese. And um one of the things that came out of a recent in the last few years re research study was that people who identify as um Asian or Asian American in Massachusetts don't have the highest rates of gambling, but when they do say they're regular gamblers, they have much higher rates of gambling problems than other other um racial and ethnic groups. So what that meant to us is we need to, and a lot of the folks who identified that way are English is not their first language. So um in the casinos we're helping with make sure there's responsible gambling programs that appeal. To folks who are gambling who identify as part of that community. So whether that's around Lunar New Year or, you know, I'm actually going to go buy like 2,000 moon cakes tomorrow because we're doing a big event around that. Chinese New Year with the red envelopes. So making sure that if folks are already gambling, how do we have conversations in a way that really appeals to them instead of just RG is supposed to be a one-size-fits-all? It just doesn't work that way. I would also say that we have spent a lot of time thinking about how women differ in terms of men in terms of their gambling. It's become a little bit more unified, but um some of the language and some of the materials and some of the even the ways that we do uh interventions and outreach is dramatically different uh depending on uh gender expression. So it's really working on that then with a community-based organization that knows the population better than us because that's not our you know, that's not our primary purpose. Um Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

How do we get the if if community-based groups organizations are listening, how do they reach out to MapG to either ask for help or give you help to reach their population?

SPEAKER_01 23:11

Yeah, well, absolutely fill out the contact sheet on our website, which is Michiganapg.org. MichiganAPG.org. Um and or email me at Marlene, M-A-R-L-E-N-E at at Michiganapg.org. Um, and I'd be happy to set up a meeting and connect. You know, I I just recently listened to one of Henry's last podcasts and uh the woman, and I'm gonna screw this up, but with the the children protective Alicia. Yes, I was like, I need to be partnering with this organiz or this entity in this uh uh effort because uh she's working to protect kids online and we want to do the same. So sometimes it's just that, right? You just hear something and you think, oh, this is a great connection. Um but yeah, absolutely. If somebody's interested, they should reach out. Nice. Are you on the socials? Can they DM you? They can.

unknown 24:02

They can.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

Facebook and LinkedIn. Uh, we have uh a presence.

SPEAKER_02 24:06

Perfect. Uh, I have a question about some future collaborations. Do you have providers? If not, maybe I know Michigan is building up, but any platform providers in some of your other states that you've been that are actually like stepping up and helping out with the mission?

SPEAKER_01 24:20

Yeah, I mean, I'd say that each and every one of them has strengths in terms of what they're doing. Uh, you know, DraftKings has just set up a whole uh, you know, RG center and um forgive me because I'm gonna forget the name, but kind of like a portal or an interface. FanDuel has done something very similar. Some of them have, you know, have made a choice to, you know, unilaterally like self-exclude people across the whole company. Some folks have uh done work with Mineway AI. Uh so I think everyone's trying. I think that um there's often friction between the RG people in the company and the the sales uh side of things. So I think there's always gonna be that friction. Uh, but I think they're all trying.

SPEAKER_02 25:03

Okay. I love that. Good. That's a good sign for Michigan, right? Yes. Um, all right. So as you look to the future, you could wave a magic wand. Yes. What's the one big idea or innovation that you'd love to see uh to happen at MapG?

SPEAKER_01 25:18

I mean, if I had a magic wand, I would make sure we had enough funding to get Michigan-based staff who could have a presence out in the community to join the team for Don't Regret the Bet from MGCB and join the team from the lottery to talk about um to talk about all the things we've talked about today. And and I think the other thing is to have staff that would really pull in a group of people who are in recovery. That's I guess another thing I really want to say. We we we've been building our board and we have a number of folks in recovery, but I would love to see a group of people who can talk to media, who can go out and talk um in school, you know, as kind of a speakers bureau. I think that's something we're gonna build soon as well, because people want to hear about that experience, and I think that's really important in kind of all ages from all over Michigan, and um, there's not one specific story we're looking for. We're really looking for a diversity of stories.

SPEAKER_02 26:14

Yeah, I love this topic so much. Is there anything that I didn't ask you about that you want listeners to know before you sign off?

SPEAKER_01 26:20

I mean, I guess the first thing I should say is if you're hearing this and you have a gambling problem, call 1-800-Gambler and you can tack uh text 800 GAM and that's for family and friends. It's for the direct person with the gambling problem. But also if you have questions about your gambling, feel free to reach out. It doesn't just have to be about a gambling problem. If you want to understand a little bit more about how gambling works, reach out to us. Um, and I guess the only other thing I'd say is that if you feel passionately about this, reach out to any of the entities. You know, the lottery is interested in leaning in and hearing you, MGCB is interested, but so are the individual operators. Reach out and tell them that you'd like to see more or do more around this topic.

SPEAKER_02 27:03

And your legislator.

SPEAKER_01 27:05

And your legislator. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 27:07

All right, Marlene, thank you so much for sharing your time, insight, and passion with us today. It's clear that your work at MAPG is already making a meaningful impact, and I think it'll be greater in the future. So I'm excited to see how MAPG continues to grow. As we mark Responsible Gaming Education Month this September, your leadership reminds us why this is very important. Because behind every bet is a person, and every person deserves support, information, and protection. Thanks, Marlene. I'm so happy you could come and do this with me.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

Jasmine, I love hanging out with you anytime. Thank you for the opportunity.